In this episode Oliver Hansard speaks to Lee Curtis of LINAR consulting. He describes what lawyers need to think about if they want to differentiate and win new work. He explores why it's time to find your splendid splinter!
Key Points in this episode:
Understanding Lawyers and BD (Business Development)
Lee classifies lawyers into three categories: 20% who inherently understand BD, 60% who need guidance, and 20% who struggle with BD.
He highlights the challenge of convincing the bottom 20% but aims to move the middle 60% to the top bracket.
Tips for Aspiring Partners
Lee emphasises the importance of networking both internally and externally.
Encourages becoming an expert in a niche area, creating a unique selling point (splendid splinter).
Challenges for Senior Partners and Firms
Acknowledges the changing legal landscape and the need for senior partners to adapt.
Recommends seeking input from the team to understand what's working and what needs improvement.
The Role of Soft Skills in Differentiating Lawyers
Soft skills are crucial for standing out in a competitive legal landscape.
Lee suggests that AI will enhance, not replace, soft skills in the next 2-5 years.
Defining Success in Legal BD
Lee defines success as making clients look good, supporting them to be admired for their work.
Personal success is measured through positive feedback and continuous improvement.
Finding Your Splendid Splinter
Encourages individuals to identify their unique strengths and become experts in those areas.
Emphasizes the need to differentiate oneself in a crowded legal market.
Conclusion
Lee Curtis stresses the importance of adapting to changes in the legal industry and leveraging AI as a tool rather than a replacement.
Success is tied to making clients and teams look good, and continuous improvement is key.
The Lawyer's Coach is brought to you by Client Talk and Hansard Coaching.
In this episode Oliver Hansard speaks to Lee Curtis of LINAR consulting. He describes what lawyers need to think about if they want to differentiate and win new work. He explores why it's time to find your splendid splinter!
Key Points in this episode:
Understanding Lawyers and BD (Business Development)
Lee classifies lawyers into three categories: 20% who inherently understand BD, 60% who need guidance, and 20% who struggle with BD.
He highlights the challenge of convincing the bottom 20% but aims to move the middle 60% to the top bracket.
Tips for Aspiring Partners
Lee emphasises the importance of networking both internally and externally.
Encourages becoming an expert in a niche area, creating a unique selling point (splendid splinter).
Challenges for Senior Partners and Firms
Acknowledges the changing legal landscape and the need for senior partners to adapt.
Recommends seeking input from the team to understand what's working and what needs improvement.
The Role of Soft Skills in Differentiating Lawyers
Soft skills are crucial for standing out in a competitive legal landscape.
Lee suggests that AI will enhance, not replace, soft skills in the next 2-5 years.
Defining Success in Legal BD
Lee defines success as making clients look good, supporting them to be admired for their work.
Personal success is measured through positive feedback and continuous improvement.
Finding Your Splendid Splinter
Encourages individuals to identify their unique strengths and become experts in those areas.
Emphasizes the need to differentiate oneself in a crowded legal market.
Conclusion
Lee Curtis stresses the importance of adapting to changes in the legal industry and leveraging AI as a tool rather than a replacement.
Success is tied to making clients and teams look good, and continuous improvement is key.
The Lawyer's Coach is brought to you by Client Talk and Hansard Coaching.
[00:00:00] Claire Rason: Welcome to Series 8 of the Lawyers Coach Podcast. I'm Claire Rason and I am here with co-host Oli Hansard. Hi Oli.
Oliver Hansard: Hi Claire. How are you?
Claire Rason: I'm good, thank you. And it's been a little while since we finished up Series 7. So what have you been doing in the intervening period?
[00:00:20] Oliver Hansard: All sorts of great coaching particularly doing a whole lot of promotion work in a range of law firms, which has been amazing fun.
[00:00:28] How about you, Claire? What have you been up to?
[00:00:30] Claire Rason: I've been again doing lots of coaching, particularly seeing lots of firms thinking about how they can promote more women up into partnerships. I've been doing lots of firms thinking about that. And also lots of work around soft skills, which I think is something that we're going to be thinking about with some of our guests over this series.
[00:00:48] Oliver Hansard: Oh, it's our favourite topic, Claire, definitely.
[00:00:49] Claire Rason: It is, soft skills or success skills, we will find out as we move through the episodes. Brilliant. So, the first episode who have you been speaking to?
[00:00:59] Oliver Hansard: [00:01:00] So, I've been speaking to Lee Curtis, who's Managing Director of LINAR Consulting, and he focuses on business development skills for lawyers.
[00:01:09] And it's a fantastic conversation as he talks about soft skills being the key thing to help lawyers stand out in today's market. It's a, it's a currency of difference. If you like.
[00:01:21] Claire Rason: Well, let's press play and let's hear what Lee had to say.
[00:01:23] Oliver Hansard: Lee, welcome to the Lawyers Coach podcast
[00:01:26] Lee Curtis: Thanks a lot, Ollie. Nice being here.
[00:01:29] Oliver Hansard: We always like to start with a little bit of background with our guests. So how did you end up where you are now and deep into the legal industry?
[00:01:35] Lee Curtis: Yeah, I mean, interesting one. Dumb luck would be the answer. Really, Ollie, to be honest. So well, it's a lifetime ago now, but about 20 years ago I was on for those that are old enough to remember it, the Milk Round, trying to find a job after university.
[00:01:51] And This company arose out of a website called some might know it's called Allen and Overy. They had a graduate scheme.[00:02:00] So I applied to that after having been knocked back from a bunch of other corporates and the rest really is history. So you joined A&
[00:02:09] Oliver Hansard: O as a non-lawyer
[00:02:10] Lee Curtis: on their grad scheme?
[00:02:12] Yeah, I mean, essentially there's a, there's a chap there by the name of Barry Jackson and what he had done was taken the, I suppose, the legal trainee framework so that each business development kind of entry level apprentice like myself went through Four, six-month rotations for a different department.
[00:02:34] And at the time I think that was the Barry was the only guy doing it in the industry. But the great thing was it gave us a massive amount of exposure to different parts of the law firm. So you at any one time working on transactional sides of the business and then contentious sides of the business.
[00:02:52] So you really got a full spectrum of. The kind of activities and initiatives that were being [00:03:00] used at the time.
[00:03:02] Oliver Hansard: And, and, and then you went from, from ANO and, and, and then that was pretty much a, a career focused in on the legal industry. Is that fair to
[00:03:10] Lee Curtis: say? Yeah, it was. So I had a I had a three-year blip, if you will, which was great.
[00:03:16] So I left ANO and actually went to British Telecom for three years. So I another kind of answered an advert, but I, I became a commercial project manager there. So I did my, project management qualifications and ended up working on big systems implementation projects and bids. But then I suppose the law came back calling and at that point in kind of early 2008 I'd really got bored of going to work in the dark and coming home in the dark in London.
[00:03:48] So I booked a one-way ticket to Sydney and went out there. Yeah, went out there for six years and fell back into law firm BD
[00:04:00] Oliver Hansard: And how would you say you know, lawyers fare when it comes, comes to BD? You know, you'll be, you're being that specialist. Is it, is it, are you able to have kind of assumptions, you know, draws assumptions about lawyers generally and their ability with BD?
[00:04:17] Lee Curtis: Yeah, I mean, look, it's an interesting question and one that I wrestle with day to day in the new company and have done for years. I mean this is broad brush, but my experience is, well, I call it the 20 60 20 rule, right? 20 percent of lawyers They understand business development, they understand sales and why it's important in an increasingly saturated competitive environment.
[00:04:45] And they don't need much pushing to do the right thing day after day. 60 percent of most law firms that they want to get it. But they need a bit of help. That it's not their core skill set. I'm not, [00:05:00] I haven't met many lawyers who jump up and down with glee when you talk to them about sales.
[00:05:05] Really there's not many lawyers that went to law school and wanted to go to law school so they could you know, go out and show their wares day after day and get rejected on a regular basis. But those 60 percent they get it, they understand it, they need a bit of help. And then there's the 20 percent at the end.
[00:05:23] And frankly speaking, they're just not, you know, like, like large swathes of the population. They're not, they're not born to do business development. Their skill sets lie elsewhere. And it's very, very difficult to convert those 20%. So that's, that's how I'd sum up lawyers and BD and sales.
[00:05:42] Oliver Hansard: And that's a great starting point.
[00:05:44] So is, is your job to, to move the, the, the, the 20 percent that don't want to do it at all into the 60 percent bracket and, and, and, and grow it? Or do you think right now, I'm just going to focus on the 60 that need the extra help and maybe enhance that 20 percent a little bit more. [00:06:00] How do you think about how you apply yourself to a firm?
[00:06:03] Lee Curtis: Yeah, Ollie. Definitely the latter for me that what you've just said. So just to make that perfectly clear, that bottom 20%, I think you're on a hiding to nothing. I think you can spend a disproportionate amount of your time trying to convert those people. Now there are exceptions to the rule because there will be very, very important and powerful partners and associates within that bottom bracket.
[00:06:29] That you need to get on board. That said, exactly as you've just suggested, you know, my, my goal and my aim is to convert many, many of those 60 percent into that top bracket so that they, and enable them with the skills and the capabilities more naturally so they can go out and win more business. So if
[00:06:54] Oliver Hansard: I know you've seen that the survey that we did, the lawyers coach so that we did, we did in the autumn and one of the [00:07:00] outcomes of that was that 58 percent of those that that responded said soft skills.
[00:07:06] It was the most important thing that needed attention. Is that consistent with your, your, your experience? If you think as BD is one of those key soft skills.
[00:07:17] Lee Curtis: Definitely, definitely. I mean, if, you know, I'm very biased, but I'd say that was a low percentage, right? And the reason I say that is quite simple.
[00:07:29] So if I look at the legal landscape, be it domestically in the UK or internationally, you know, there's a few things that are clear to me. One is that the competitive landscape is and continues to be very competitive. There's a lot of law firms out there that can do what clients are asking them to do.
[00:07:51] And any, and any lawyer worth their salt will not stand behind the fact that they are now, you know, they, they are [00:08:00] unique and, and what they do is absolutely unique. So what you've got is you've got a homogeneous. Set of products and services that law firms deliver at a certain level and you know we’ve been saying it in the BD community for years, but just giving the legal advice is no longer enough So if that is the case and you accept that proposition, what else do they accept that proposition?
[00:08:24] Oliver Hansard:
[00:08:25] Sorry to interrupt, but no, but is that generally accepted?
[00:08:27] Lee Curtis: It's accepted more than it was five years ago and more than it was 10 years ago, but you make a very good point. There are still some dare I say in that bottom 20 percent bracket that I spoke about earlier that are absolutely convinced that the legal advice that they provide on a day-to-day basis is absolutely unique within the industry.
[00:08:50] I don't buy that, except in some very, very rare niche cases. But let's talk about the population as a whole. I just don't buy that. So, if, if that [00:09:00] proposition is accepted what else do you have to deal, deal on? You know, what other characteristics and behaviours are going to stand you out against the competition?
[00:09:12] And for me it's absolutely in that softer skills bracket. So you know, your ability to actively listen to your client and understand where the advice you provide. Six within a wider bit business context your ability to network both internally within your firm so that you win more mandates from an internal perspective, but also externally out there in the market, if you can become.
[00:09:40] One of those dot connectors and connect clients to other clients for ancillary and adjacent services, then you're going to be successful. There are many more I could go into, but I think for me, the currency of differentiation is at that. Now that softer skills level, [00:10:00] everyone expects a certain level of legal advice and service, but what you are differentiating yourself.
[00:10:07] Is on essentially customer service and that manifests itself when you're buying and selling people in the ways in which those people are interacting with you.
[00:10:19] Oliver Hansard: So can I just explore that phrase dot connector? Cause I think that's a really interesting one. And, and I know there are some lawyers who are really nervous about introducing, you know, an accountant or a, you know, a potential collaborator or or deal counterpart because they're worried about the liability that in the implied liability having made that connection might bring what do you say to that?
[00:10:47] What do you say to that reticence to connect those dots?
[00:10:51] Lee Curtis: I completely understand it. But, you know, for me, it, it comes down to one word essentially and that, that is [00:11:00] trust. So, you know, anyone that's done any thinking or reading by David Meister about the trust equation you know, you will know that over time and it does take time, you know, this is an instant gratification, but over time.
[00:11:15] You establish rapport and you establish relationships, not only with your clients, but with people that you work with, et cetera, et cetera. And at those points, when you're making those introductions, you have to be confident and you have to trust in the ability of your colleagues and your counterparts to perform to the, to the levels of quality and expectation that you've become used to and that clients expect.
[00:11:44] And that is. That is very challenging particularly in my experience for lawyers particularly for, and the reason I say that is if I was going to characterize a lawyer, a typical lawyer, one of the challenges they [00:12:00] have is that largely speaking, they need to understand a hundred percent of the topic they're talking about at all times.
[00:12:07] Now that is simply not possible when you're. Looking at, you know, adjacent services and things like that. You can't be an expert in everything. And so there is to a certain extent, a leap of faith. And that is challenging in my experience for the lawyer population.
[00:12:26] Oliver Hansard: But there's also a lens which is, which is a lawyer's, and I say this having been a general counsel, so on the inside of a business as opposed to in, in, in, in a law firm, but there's also a sense which is a lawyer is just a business person who happens to have a particular speciality.
[00:12:43] And if, and if that frame of mind, I think is one that might be helpful for a lawyer as they connect those dots think about different ways of, of, of building a business, building a business case. Reaching out to clients. So, so [00:13:00] what do you think to that kind of mindset?
[00:13:04] Lee Curtis: I'd fully endorse that. You know, my, my experience suggests that you've, you've identified probably the top 20 percent of what we were talking about earlier.
[00:13:14] So, I mean, again, I'll turn the question back on yourself as a general counsel, right? I, I suspect, you know, throughout your career in your experience, the lawyers that you like to deal with most, didn't just think about. You know, the IP rights associated with position X, they were thinking much more broadly than that, and they were, you know, introducing their colleagues or introducing, you know, new emerging risks that were a bit uncomfortable for them a bit outside of their own skill set, but yet they were grounding all of their advice to you as a GC in that business context.
[00:13:53] I suggest that You might have had other law firms and lawyers where the, the lawyer, the [00:14:00] partner, the MA in question had complete blinkers on and did an absolutely fantastic job in that very niche, narrow band of advice that you asked them for. And that was great. But unfortunately, the world doesn't work like that.
[00:14:15] Oliver Hansard: And you used the word context, right? Context is everything. The advice needs to be great, but the context needs to be understood and responded to. So I think it's really well said. So, so let me Ask you this or paint this picture. I I'm a, I'm a, you know, an associate, a senior associate. I'm thinking about my, or a mid-level associate.
[00:14:36] I'm thinking about partnership is for me. That's, that's the route I want to go. But I know I need to build a practice to achieve that. What would your, you know, top tips be in terms of, you know, what should I do starting now? What, what are the key things I should do as a, as a professional to, to build that practice?[
[00:14:58] Lee Curtis
[00:15:00] Yeah, good question. I think there are probably two or three things you should start doing right now. The first one I've mentioned earlier, I think it is incredibly important is, is network. And if I, if I start with network, I mean that in two contexts. If you have aspirations to partnership, you are going to need support internally to get there.
[00:15:23] And I don't just mean your sponsoring partner. The more people that sing internally about how great you are and how helpful you are is really going to stand you in good stead when you go in front of the, you know, partnership committee or, or the equivalent. So building out your internal network is incredibly useful.
[00:15:45] At the same time, though, equally as important. is letting the world know that you're around and you're there now you can do that in a in a wide variety of contexts dependent on your own [00:16:00] persona your own characteristics so for you know not every lawyer likes Standing up and presenting or going to networking events, you know, quite, quite a few lawyers are more cerebral and like writing articles and things like that.
[00:16:14] There is, there are opportunities for every type of character to build their network out amongst their client base and wider. And there are. Channels to do that, that we didn't have 10 years ago, you know, the likes of LinkedIn and, and similar. So there's an ability to do that. The second thing that I'd say is that and, and it was termed to me by an ex-chairman of a UK top 200 firm is to find your splendid splinter.
[00:16:47] So what, what do we mean by that? That's. That's really, try and become an expert in something, right? However niche it is, whether it's a [00:17:00] certain, certain impact on a certain regulation that's buried way down in a statute book, if you become the firm expert or the world expert in that, in your chosen industry people will come knocking because they'll ask questions about it So making sure that you have a USP to put it in my terms, a unique selling point from a, you know, from a technical perspective is, is also useful they'd be my kind of two top tips for someone that's heading towards or trying to head towards partnership.
[00:17:38] Oliver Hansard: That's really helpful. Thank you. And then looking at it from the other way around, I'm a senior partner in a decent, a decent sized law firm, but I know. The BD isn't what it should be. How should I set what, what changes could I make? How should I set up a marketing function? You know, what, what should I [00:18:00] do as the leader of an organization?
[00:18:01] Lee Curtis:
[00:18:03] Now that is a great question. And it's something I'd love to talk to many, many managing and senior partners about. I think the first thing, the first thing to say is that like it or not the legal industry has changed and is changing under our feet. And the way in which we go to market as an industry.
[00:18:28] Has changed. And so for senior and managing partners that may well be heading more towards the twilight of their careers, rather than the nursery, it's to take advice. It's to get soundings from their line partners that are working day in, day out on new client engagements and ways of working. It's to really consult with.
[00:18:54] The nuts and bolts of the business as to what's working and what isn't working. You know, if I, [00:19:00] if I turn my attention more to where I've played you know, for the past two decades in the marketing and business development teams, you know, for C for CMO is chief marketing officers and head to business development out there.
[00:19:14] You know, I think. In the past five years, they've suffered very much in a similar way to the GCs of corporates and in house counsel, right? Which is, you know, people have woken up to the fact that you're a cost centre. And so how do you, how do you rebalance that equation so that you're actually adding value back into the business?
[00:19:36]
[00:19:39] Oliver Hansard: You know, one of the things I'm demonstrably because I wouldn't want to imply that they haven't been adding value, but it's demonstrating that value tangibly.
[00:19:46] Lee Curtis: Yeah. Yeah. And Ollie, you're absolutely right because the one of the, one of the biggest challenges that BD has is that tangible. Demonstration measurement of whether it's an increase in [00:20:00] reputation, an increase in visibility or things like that.
[00:20:03] And so, you know, CMOs really need to get very smart about. Measurement and data associated with value that's being delivered back. And one of the, one of the things I'm really proud of, of the time at Simmons, which was my last big law firm was that we sought to reshape the BD function so that it was much more client facing and in certain aspects, mine included being sales, it was revenue generating.
[00:20:32] And so it was very, very easy to demonstrate the value back to the firm because we were actually. adding to the bottom line.
[00:20:42] Oliver Hansard: That's great. And, and, and you talk about the change in the, in the in the industry and, and, and different sources to market. Let me frame the question like this. Do you think that AI will ever replace?
[00:20:55] You know, those soft skills that, that we talked about earlier is, is, [00:21:00] is AI going to be a panacea for, for solving a range of BD problems?
[00:21:04] Lee Curtis: Is it, is it going to be an answer to solving BD problems? Absolutely. 100%. Is it going to replace the BD function? And I'll be a slightly controversial here.
[00:21:15] You'd need, I'd need to give you a timeline. So, you know, for the, for the BD and marketing colleagues out there at the moment, you've got a time, you've got a time horizon and a window, right? To embrace artificial intelligence and, and particularly generative artificial intelligence. You know, look, it's, it is a in, in similar ways, it is both a fascinating and a frankly, quite scary new technological development, right?
[00:21:44] The pace of change in the pace of adoption is startling. And if I, if I break down for you, just one example in relation to, you know, business development and marketing that I've been looking at a lot [00:22:00] recently, it's, it's the ability to create very, very comprehensive and engaging campaigns with.
[00:22:11] Relatively small amounts of effort. If you are doing the right thing. That comes though with a massive caveat and that is, and I was talking about this on LinkedIn this morning. I think people who are not across. The capabilities of Gen AI as much as they should be at the moment are seeing it as a replacement, a like for like replacement of humans.
[00:22:36] I don't see that's the case. You know, my greatest, my best analogy that I've been thinking about is that for those that like the Alien films, you know, at the end of Alien the android Bishop got into an exoskeleton, right? AI is like the exoskeleton. It gives you superhuman powers, but it still needs you to drive it, [00:23:00] right?
[00:23:00] It's nothing without you, the human. I think that'll continue for a while to come, but I'm very excited about the opportunities.
[00:23:08] Oliver Hansard: And therefore, lawyers will still need to develop their practice. We'll still need to develop that trust with their clients. And we'll still need to, to keep developing these soft skills.
[00:23:20] AI isn't going to be replacing any of that.
[00:23:27] Lee Curtis: I mean, look you know, if, if we flick to lawyers for a second, you know, look at, look at the capabilities AI has to make every, every junior level associate a superhuman. Right. So you're putting, you're putting in the hands of those junior associates, if used correctly abilities to summarize and understand huge volumes of information in record
[00:23:54] quick times. You've got the ability to access, you [00:24:00] know, the entirety of PLC or Thomson Reuters and assess all of that case law in record time. But again, it comes with a massive health warning, right? It is a tool and every tool needs someone to use it. So I think in the next probably two to five years.
[00:24:20] The winners are going to be the people that enable the use of AI best.
[00:24:28] Oliver Hansard: Brilliant. Really helpful, really helpful guidance. Hello, we're coming to the end, but let me ask you one, one last question, which I don't know, it might be a big question, but we, we, we had a series, two or three series back about success and, and what lawyers.
[00:24:43] you know, define success both for themselves, their business, be that, you know, personally or for the firm or, or, or whatever that might be for you when you interact with, with, with clients, with lawyers, as you grow your business or personally, how do you define [00:25:00] success?
[00:25:02] Lee Curtis: How do I define it for myself or how do I define it for them or both?
[00:25:06] Oliver Hansard: I would love both. I think I'd be fascinated to hear both.
[00:25:09] Lee Curtis:
Look, I mean, I'm conscious of who I'm speaking to, Ollie, but look, lawyers are a unique breed in a very positive way. But I think, I think this stands for any client engagement I have really, whether it's a lawyer, it's an accountant or it's a, it's a corporate team.
[00:25:31] You know, I am seeking to make them look good. That's my entire job, right? If I can make the individual or the team look good in front of their bosses, then we all go home happy. And the reason for that is, is clear. Everyone is on some sort of progression. Everyone likes to be admired and recognized for the work they do.
[00:25:58] It's an, it's a [00:26:00] natural human trait. So anything that I can do to support individuals, teams and firms to look better. And, you know, in my world, generate more revenue is a good thing. Similarly, I mean, for me personally, it's, it's much the same, you know, if I can leave an engagement and ask for feedback and the feedback is positive, then I'm happy.
[00:26:28] You know, because we've already done the work around well, you know, what's the cost of that? What's the value of that? That's, that's kind of the mechanics. But what I asked for at the end of every engagement is honest and open feedback as to, you know, what we got right and what we can improve on. And you know, if during that feedback process, someone says something nice I grow a couple of inches.
[00:26:52] Amazing.
[00:26:52] Oliver Hansard: Well, let me give you some feedback. You've been a fantastic guest. It's been really great speaking to you. And what I would, what I would say, Lee, is I think [00:27:00] you've found your splendid splinter when it comes to helping, helping lawyers grow softer skills and improving their BD.
[00:27:07] So look, thanks ever so much for being on the Lawyers Coach podcast
[00:27:10] Lee Curtis: Thank you very much for the invite.
[00:27:15] Claire Rason: So that was Ollie speaking to Lee. Didn't disappoint. I've got a number of things that I want to jump in and talk about, but, but Ollie, what stood out for you from that conversation?
[00:27:25] Oliver Hansard: I think two things really, Claire.
[00:27:27] The first one was this notion that not every lawyer is going to succeed and be the best business developer, and I liked his 20%, 60%, 20 percent approach to move the middle 60 percent of, if you like, you know. Unwilling business developers up into the more willing top 20 percent category. I thought that was just a really pragmatic approach.
[00:27:48] Claire Rason: Yeah. And what kind of struck me with that is it is very similar to something I heard recently about diversity and this notion that there is always a [00:28:00] coachable middle. So you always have with, with most projects where you're trying to move people, you will have people in the middle who, you know, are the ones thatcould be convinced either way, but they're the ones that you perhaps need to focus on. You will always have a percentage that just get it. And you'll always have a percentage that really are going to be difficult to shift. But it's this idea of this coachable middle that kind of, you know, as I said, is something that I've kind of been playing with in my mind for a while now.
[00:28:26] And we started off at the beginning, are they soft skills or are they success skills? And it was interesting to hear Lee talking about them. What was your take?
[00:28:33] Oliver Hansard: Well, the other one, I really love this phrase he used when he said every lawyer, and I suppose it goes for everyone really, should find what he described as your splendid splinter.
[00:28:44] In other words, identify that area that you have, which everybody has, of uniqueness. Really become an expert in it. And then that's your go to go to market USP, unique selling point. And really, really work on that and [00:29:00] use that as your, as your strongest muscle, if you like.
[00:29:02] Claire Rason: People, sometimes we forget what makes us different and what makes us special.
[00:29:06] And I think when we try and be like somebody else, or we try and do things like the person down the corridor, we're kind of bound to fail before we even start. So I think recognizing that we each come with our own strengths, whatever they are, and, and trying to understand what our strengths are and focusing on those, I think has to be the way to do business development for me.
[00:29:27] Absolutely. So, thank you so much, Ollie. That was a great conversation with Leigh. So in the next episode, I have a conversation with Nicky Owen, who is Head of Professional Practices at Crowe. And amongst other things, she reveals an interesting start into her tax career. I
[00:29:47 Nikki Owen: I worked for the M.O.D. and I had to sign the Official Secrets Act. And I used to have to go up to a place in Western Supermare and in the, at low tide, we would lay [00:30:00] explosives on the sand and at high tide, effectively, we would blow them up.
[00:30:03] Claire Rason: So that was Nicky, who I will be speaking to in the next episode of Lawyers Coach. Thanks Ollie, and thanks for listening.